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Bill's Bill Bruford Interview, Part One

This is where writer Bill Murphy posts his interviews with the Crims, and other prog luminaries. It's a book in serial form -- that you become part of!

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Bill's Bill Bruford Interview, Part One

Postby LTinAspic on Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:51 pm

Good afternoon,

My interviews with drummer extraordinaire Bill Bruford were among the first, and still remain among my favorites – not necessarily because of what he said per se. Rather, because of how he said it. He was intense and serious. My impression of Bill at that time was that he was cynical, somewhat bitter. Perhaps some would say angry. Of course, his demeanor could have been an affectation for my benefit. Or that could have been his natural personality. I don't know. But he seemed to have obvious disdain for my project (writing a book about progressive rock) and for the music industry in general. But, at all times, he was extremely articulate and thoughtful. I appreciated his candor.

This is Part One of my first interview with Mr. Bruford. It was conducted on November 14, 1992. I called him at his home in England and spoke for about an hour.

Please keep in mind that I only caught a moment in time with this man and we’re looking back on it some 13 years later. The ‘80s King Crimson was nearly 10 years past. The ‘90s King Crimson was still just a gleam in Robert’s eye. It was an in-between time for Crims. In addition, Yes had just toured behind their <i>Union</i> album and Bruford was part of that tour. After the tour, Yes continued on, but Bruford opted not to be part of it. All of those circumstances became questions for me to ask him.

What I got was Bill Bruford extemporaneously venting what I saw as frustrations with the music industry, but also professing his love for jazz. Perhaps, he was also a little hurt because, at that time, Fripp had not asked him to be in the ‘90s Crimson. And, as you'll see toward the end of my inteview, he seemed to be extremely proud of his work with the Crims.

What is he like today? I don't know. Chances are, since my interviews, Bill has mellowed with age and is a happier guy. One can only hope so.

Feel free to circulate this interview as you see fit, quoting from it liberally. I only ask that you include the following attribution when you do so: <b>© 1992, 2005 Bill Murphy (</b>. Thanks!

BM: Hi, is this Bill?

BB: Yeah.

BM: I appreciate you taking some time this evening for me.

BB: That’s all right. I forgot what we’re talking about, Bill. Remind me again.

BM: This is a book I’m putting together on progressive rock, art rock, classical rock, what-have-you and –

BB: Oh, God. Good luck to ya.

BM: [laughs] Yeah. It’s quite a big topic, I must say. But you seem to play a large role in it, though, so that’s why I’m giving you a call.

BB: What can I do for you?

BM: Well, I have a pretty good question to start with: I’ve heard that King Crimson is reforming and that Yes is still together, but a notable exception is that you’re not in either one. Why is that?

BB: [laughs] Well, because I would rather, if I could, look forward than look back if possible.

BM: Uh-huh.

BB: I can only look back insofar as it affords me financially the wherewithal to look forward.

BM: I see.

BB: When I grew up, of course, record companies had some interest in encouraging the future. They invested some of their profits in what we call research and development, investment for new music. Now, of course, they don’t do that. They just operate on the back catalog side, you know, turning what they have into ever increasing profits.

BM: Uh-huh.

BB: That would be Yes and King Crimson and so forth, without breaking any new territory. So it’s up to the musicians to provide the future however they can. So inasmuch as you will ever find me associating with anything from the past, it is only to get money to finance the future.

BM: Ahhh. It seems kind of strange that you cast your lot with Robert Fripp at other times before but you turned him down this time. I guess that’s –

BB: Well, well you’re jumping lots of guns.

BM: [laughs] What do you mean?

BB: First of all, the last gig…I still consider I’m in King Crimson.

BM: Really?

BB: The last gig I had was in 1984 and I’m still waiting for the phone to ring.

BM: Oh.

BB: I consider it most unlikely that the phone will ring because I’m quite sure Robert will have some other band in mind.

BM: Hmm.

BB: So you’re all going far too fast.

BM: Ahh. I just assumed…well, I was talking with Tony Arnold last month and I guess he said that Tony Levin and Adrian Belew were back with this new incarnation –

BB: Yeah, well you see, you have to understand that Robert and I are probably not the most compatible people.

BM: Oh, really?

BB: And Robert likes to control things the way they are and that’s fine. So it’s really better that if I have any idea of how music should go that I should form my own band and work in what I perceive to be a better field, a field that’s more suitable for me.

BM: Hmm.

BB: So that’s what I do and I’m now more in the so-called jazz department.

BM: Yup. And let’s start with that. Tell me about Earthworks. Your last album (<i>All Heaven Broke Loose</i>) came out in 1991. Do you plan to put out another one shortly?

BB: Yeah, hopefully so. It’s – what can I tell you about Earthworks? – it’s different from rock.

BM: Yeah.

BB: There are lots of things that are different about jazz from rock, not the least of which is the music. But lots of other ancillary things, too: The purpose of the music and why the musicians do it and the fact that you’re not going to make a living at it, obviously, because it’s called jazz and the fact that you make large portions of it up as you go along, and that it’s not just perceived as an entertainment and all kinds of other things.

BM: Right.

BB: So it’s quite different. And there are lots of things about it that I like and lots that are disadvantageous. But nonetheless it’s where I feel I can express what it is that I want to do on a musical instrument. And, therefore, people like me were squeezed out of rock into what you would call the peripheral musics around it, be it classical music or art music or some sort of experimental music or jazz – these are all the musics from which rock gets its material – but at times it includes musicians from those peripheral musics, when it’s feeling generous and when the economy is…when the dollar is strong and when the economy is big.

BM: Sure. I can see that.

BB: But in a recession those people get squeezed out, of course, because there’s not enough money to pay for them. All this has to do with finance. Practically everything you know about music has to do with money.

BM: I’m finding that out. Especially when it’s called progressive rock these days. Many bands have had to start their own labels and distribute their music themselves, independently, because major labels don’t want anything to do with it.

BB: Almost anything, anything whatsoever to do with music has to do with money – be it the church’s support of, you know, Beethoven or Jimi Hendrix or anything else. It’s all to do with money. What you hear is the result of somebody being paid or not being paid.

BM: Well, tell me about Earthworks. You’ve made three albums so far. Do you have a favorite of those three? Or are they all just –

BB: What you hear is a work in progress, Earthworks. It continues. Yes, I do, but if you ask any musician what his favorite album is and he’ll say his last album.

BM: And is that what you would say in this case, too?

BB: It’s what I would say in this case, too. Yes. It’s the loosest of the three, which I like, myself, personally. The best seller was the first one. But that, again, had nothing to do with the music on the record. That had everything to do with the number of people trying to sell it.

BM: [laughs] You sound like you have a very pragmatic view of the music business.

BB: Well, I assure you I do. And, of course, you would too if you were trying to live in it.

BM: Yeah. [laughs]

BB: If you were trying to live in it you better understand that you’d have to have a very pragmatic view, immediately. Otherwise, you won’t last more than ten minutes.

BM: [laughs]

BB: So my favorite album, I think, is <i>All Heaven Broke Loose</i>. But that’s because the band is beginning to find its voice and, you know, it’s like a long, slow process. It’s a bit like maturing wine or something. It takes a while. And, of course, everything that people want these days has to be done in five minutes or else it’s no good.

BM: Sure. I understand. It has to sell big or forget it.

BB: You either sell big like Madonna or Genesis or you don’t exist. That’s the way things currently are. But, nonetheless, people like me, of course, refuse to go away. So we form bands like Earthworks and watch them slowly grow better, which is lovely.

BM: Well, it kind of amazes –

BB: Sort of like gardening.

BM: [laughs] Yeah. A long, slow methodical process, eh?

BB: Yeah.

BM: Well, it amazes me that you say people like you get squeezed out and all that because you’re considered, from what I understand, to be one of the best drummers in the world. You know, why would somebody of your stature be squeezed out of the business?

BB: [sharply] You don’t understand?

BM: [laughs] Because you like to play music that doesn’t make a quick buck, is that it?

BB: Of course, yes. Yes, I mean, being one of the best drummers in the world – whether I am or not has nothing to do with anything. That has to do with being voted so by other drummers. They don’t pay for anything.

BM: [laughs]

BB: The people who pay are called record companies and they are not interested in whether you’re the best violinist in town or not. They want to know whether you can get a hit. Or whether you can sell records.

BM: Hmm.

BB: So this has really nothing whatsoever to do with your ability as a musician. It has everything to do with whether or not you will provide some music for the company that they will promote. If you do, they’ll promote it and all will become self-fulfilling. If you don’t, you are squeezed out, which is inevitable. Robert Fripp, for example, would have essentially no voice at all were it not for the bigger item King Crimson that could be occasionally wielded in his favor. But even that is becoming marginal in the very difficult times. So you would find that his other work, which I’m not sure what it is, but it might be Sunday All Over the World or Guitar Mechanics or whatever. It’s going to find its own very small level. There is nothing else it can do because the system is set up that it cannot come from nowhere. It’s out of the question.

BM: Well, I understand that before you joined Yes you were – you know, in the late Sixties – you were considered a jazz man to the core. It seems you’ve come full circle.

BB: Well, in a way, that’s right. In a way that’s right. I thought Yes was going to be a jazz group, you know. I mean, I didn’t know anything about jazz, really. All I knew was I wanted to play. And I was eighteen years old. So you know I knew nothing.

BM: [laughs]

BB: And I just played with the first people I could find and they happened to be pretty much Chris Squire and Jon Anderson and whomever. And, you know, you do whatever you’re gonna do. I didn’t think, “Oh God. This isn’t jazz. I’m going to go play what I think is jazz.” I didn’t work that way, you know. The jazz I grew up with was, on the whole, Black American jazz. You know, Elvin Jones and Max and Tony Williams and all the great American drummers. No the London jazz scene of 1968 – which was, by that stage, very introspective and very antagonistic. Very politically based and generally a thoroughly obnoxious place to be.

BM: [laughs]

BB: And if you were eighteen and you played the drum set, where you wanted to be was with Jimi Hendrix where it was all happening. You didn’t really want to be in the London jazz scene. Now, of course, it’s the exact opposite. If you’re 18 it’s much more exciting to play in the London jazz scene that it is to try to play with – I don’t know who can you try to play with? – Sade or someone?

BM: [laughs]

BB: You know, there aren’t any rock groups around that are anywhere near as exciting as modern London jazz. So it’s the exactly opposite, really.

BM: I have a two-pronged question: First, what appeals to you about playing jazz? And, second, how does that style of playing differ from playing in a so-called progressive rock band?

BB: Well, what I suppose I like about jazz is that I don’t exactly know what’s happening.

BM: Ahh.

BB: Which is great. With almost every other style of music you know immediately. You know what’s going to happen in the next five minutes and you know what’s going to happen in the next ten minutes. Particularly if you play the Brahm’s Concerto which has one cymbal roll in it. Or you’re playing in a rock group where you know exactly what’s going to happen three minutes down the road. And it must happen otherwise you’re fired.

BM: [laughs]

BB: That kind of thing we had tried to steer away form in all the groups I’ve been in, namely Yes and King Crimson. Of course, I was one of the people agitating that should not be the case and that there should be an element of flexibility and doubt about the whole thing. What I was swaying, I suppose, when I was saying all these things is, really, “let’s play jazz.” That’s what I was saying, I guess. I didn’t really realize it. But, of course, I have no doubt to rock musicians that’s extremely irritating. And, obviously, that causes upset in places like Yes, which is why I went to King Crimson. Which is where Robert instinctively understood all that.

BM: Whom do you admire, then, when it comes to drummers? Do you have anybody currently that you really this is great, or anybody from the past you think is great?

BB: Well, there are hundreds of drummers that are great. But I don’t really like to give a list of names…but there are lots of people. But they may or not may not successful. And they may or may not – well, they probably won’t be successful, actually, because they’ve got too many good ideas.

BM: [laughs]

BB: So, it’s an exciting scene I think. You know, it’s a matter of whether you’re looking at the older drummers or the younger drummers. Drumming has coming a long way since I started. In 25 years it’s come a long way.

BM: And that’s a good point for the next question, I guess. In the <i>Yesyears</i> video, you demonstrated all the new electronic drum sounds and things you could play and you looked like a kid in a candy store, like you were having a great time with all of these new technical things. What effect do you think electronic drums are going to have on, say, jazz or progressive rock or whatever.

BB: Well, it’s slow. I mean, I thought I would form Earthworks partly to demonstrate a more serious use of electronic percussion. To prove that, you know, you don’t have to just be Depeche Mode or be a kid to use electronic percussion. It had become a serious kind of tool for the improviser. And I think Earthworks demonstrates that. But, unfortunately, I seem to be the only guy who’s kind of doing it. And part of the reason for that is that the instruments are too expensive.

BM: Yeah.

BB: I told you everything to do with music has to do with money.

BM: [laughs]

BB: The reason Earthworks exists is that I can afford for it to exist. It’s basically a labor of love with very specialist and custom instruments that require a lot of programming and a lot of thought and they’re not mass-market instruments. Therefore, they’re very expensive. And, regrettably, I had hoped that everybody would buy the instruments that I have and the whole world would be playing this expensive electronic drum [equipment] by now. That did not occur. So I seem to be about the only guy left still doing that. And the bottom line has more effectively fallen out of live electronic drum playing. It is, of course, available in studios in the shape of computers – where nearly all the recorded music you hear these days is, of course, in an instrument computer.

BM: I saw you on the Yes <i>Union</i> tour in Kalamazoo, Michigan.

BB: Oh yes.

BM: You and Alan White seemed to be enjoying playing off each other’s different styles. What did you think of that tour? And did you see any ego problems with any of the band members having that many people on stage at one time?

BB: Well, it was what it was, really. It was a kind of genial party. It was like a frat house reunion type of thing. It was quite fun and I was invited along and there’s no point in being surly about it. It was fun and everybody loves being paid lots of money for lots of people to get all misty-eyed and dewy-eyed about the past and the way things used to be.

BM: [laughs]

BB: And, of course, things weren’t great, you know. But that’s how people like to see it and they pay $20 or $40 for that privilege. And God bless them. I can use the money. But I’m not going to use it recreating another type of Yes or another type of so-called progressive group because that’s not a meaningful term to me in any sense. It has never meant anything to me and it never did when anybody started talking about it and it doesn’t mean anything to me now. So the Yes reunion tour was fun and I’m grateful to have been asked and I don’t think I’ll do it again in a hurry.

BM: [laughs]

BB: I felt like a fish out of water. You know, my style has changed a lot and what I did in the group…put it this way: Alan White did what I did, only he did it five times louder.

BM: [laughs]

BB: And that left me just playing kind of percussion to his drum set. Which is okay. But, again, as I say, three or four months of that is fine. And then I better get back to what I was doing.

BM: Chris Squire seems to be one of the better bass players in the world. But he seems to know it, too. He looks like he’s got a big ego. Is he difficult to work with? Or is he a better guy to get along with than he appears to be?

BB: Well, he’s, yeah, a good musician. It’s not hard to get along with him when you’re just playing already written and conceived music. When you’re just playing for a tour that’s very easy. The much harder thing is to decide what kind of music you want to play in the first place. And that, of course, I was not asked to do. So that was not a problem. We weren’t existing on a creating music level. We were just existing on a reproduction level. So that’s fine. A very pleasant guy. Say hello in the morning, get up and play the music and then go to bed at night. It’s not hard. Not difficult at all. Not nearly as difficult as cooperating creatively with people, which happens on a minute, second-by-second basis in a live jazz group that is playing together, and effectively.

BM: You mention the progressive rock term is one that you don’t like or that it means virtually nothing to you. Did you consider Yes and King Crimson to be progressive rock? Did you call yourself that at the time? Or where did –

BB: You have to understand that musicians don’t go around calling themselves anything.

BM: Really?

BB: The record company goes around calling you something so that it can sell you – you know, which you’ve asked it to do. So, I mean, the term they found was progressive rock. They could have called it Chinese music, for all I care. It doesn’t mean anything to me. To me, what means something to me is what I’m playing and are the other people enjoying it and does it feel fresh and is it what everybody else has done or has it got a new angle to it. I consider that I’m trying to make a contribution, if you like, to my instrument and the way people conduct themselves on what we call the drum set in the late 20th century. And my job is to come up with ideas about how you can play this thing called a drum set. That’s what they pay me for.

BM: [laughs]

BB: And I, therefore, try naturally to fall into groups where that is possible and where the other musicians on their instruments are doing a similar thing. So King Crimson would be, in the ‘80s, a very good example of that -- or in the ‘70s, for that matter -- where people are changing the way you look at what you do on your instrument and the styles in which you could be playing and what’s possible. So, you know, whether it’s called Chinese or progressive or regressive or demented or Communist I don’t care. It’s just what I do in music. Right now it’s called jazz. I couldn’t care less about that, either.

BM: [laughs]

BB: You see what I mean? It’s not the musicians that change. It is the playing field on which you are asked to play. It is the record company nomenclature that changes. I mean, they have you believe now that jazz is – oh God, I don’t know – that jazz is Larry Carlton and George Benson. You know, but these were rock or B&B guys when I grew up. So they haven’t changed. They do the same things. But what’s changed is radio stations and record companies. They’ve changed. So progressive is a meaningless term. And for me to form a progressive group is stupid because what I do on an instrument is go forward with it. I don’t go backwards.

BM: Okay. Leaving the definition of progressive rock aside, what type of music was being played by groups such as Yes or King Crimson or Genesis back in those days?

BB: Some of it was very good, some of it was very bad, some of it was very slow, some of it was very fast –

BM: But where did it come from? Where did all of the time changes come from or the weird –

BB: Oh, it’s stolen from everywhere, same as it’s always stolen from everywhere.

BM: Really?

BB: The time signatures came from some classical stuff, you know, the strange discontinuity of it as distinct from having a 2/4 backbeat. A lot of that was classical, you know. It came from misguided attempts to be fresh with things. It came from synthesizers, which had just been invented. It came from everywhere. It came from – you could get all socialistic about it and you could describe it as the English music scene, which had a lot to do with this type of music you’re talking about. And how a group like Yes was, as many of these groups were, comprised of many different people, some of whom had musical training and some of whom didn’t. Some of whom like jazz and some of whom like R&B and some of whom like classical music and some of whom didn’t know anything about anything.


BB: And this mishmash led to sort of an attempt to do something more with pop music than just play three chords. A lot of people hated it. A lot of people still hate it. Particularly the people who are the kind of people who like three-chord music. They hate it when new guys come along with a fourth or a fifth chord.

BM: Yeah. Let me ask you something about that early Yes period, then I’ll jump up a bit and get back to the present time. Let’s start with the first two Yes albums. The band seemed to be going along okay, fairly ho-hum, nothing special – until you get to that third album [<i>The Yes Album</i>]. What caused the distinct break between the third album and its predecessors? Was it producer Eddie Offord? Steve Howe? I mean, what caused you guys to all of a sudden sound completely different from the way you did before that album?

BB: Well, I don’t know because I didn’t really think we did sound that different. You think the third album’s so different from the second one?

BM: Oh yeah. You had stuff like “Something’s Coming” and “Every Little Thing” and, then all of a sudden you get “Starship Trooper” and “Long Distance Runaround.”

BB: Well, I suppose you’ve answered the question in that they’re original compositions.

BM: Ahh.

BB: I suppose up until the end of the second album or certainly half way through the second album the band was a cover band. It started off doing versions of other people’s songs. Long-winded versions.

BM: [laughs]

BB: Large sections of the 1812 overture stuck in the middle. And it did stuff by Vanilla Fudge and the Fifth Dimension and all that. And I suppose, gradually we thought we would write our own music and I suppose we tried to do that. That must have been the difference.

BM: What was your contribution when you were a member of Yes years? I mean, for instance, you’re credited with songwriting credit on “Heart of the Sunrise.” What did you actually do in that song? Were you telling the other guys to play certain chords? Or was your job to –

BB: Trying to. Yeah, I was suggesting riffs and I’d walk over to the piano and bang out a riff and say, “Why don‘t we stick this here and then we can play it backwards and then why don’t we put that over here” and we were all just fighting and screaming in the rehearsal room. And the guys with the biggest muscles usually won. It was horrible. I mean, it was one of the most uncomfortable times. It was so boring, you know. And so slow. And it would take forever because nobody had any music and nobody could sight read anything and nobody had anything prepared. So somebody would hum a tune and somebody would say “That’s terrible, let’s play this” and then there’d be an argument and then very slowly something would begin to emerge.

BM: So I guess it’s no surprise, then, that in 1972 you jumped ship. You left Yes to go over to King Crimson. Was that because you were dissatisfied with Yes and you wanted to explore –

BB: No, I was very satisfied.

BM: Really?

BB: I was satisfied. But I wanted to do something else. I couldn’t imagine doing all that again. I just seemed, you know, like I’d been in the one band forever – and it was only four years, for God’s sake. And I didn’t want to go up and down the English highway system any more. And I wanted to play with other people who looked at music differently, you know. I wasn’t going to sit in another rehearsal room again and argue with Chris Squire about if something should be an F sharp or if it should be an F.

BM: [laughs] The linter notes to the King Crimson box set [<i>Frame By Frame</i>] say that you left to join King Crimson because “Robert is the only person I would have left for.” What was it about Robert Fripp that seemed so appealing to you?

BB: Well, he was offering…the other group in England that was much better than Yes was King Crimson. They had more success than Yes. And was considerably more popular. It had already had a platinum album by the time Yes had recorded <i>The Yes Album</i>. King Crimson seemed like a much more instrumental band and a band that seemed much more grown up in that it didn’t have to go through this agonizing music-making process.

BM: One of the things you reportedly said at the time was that you wanted to leave Yes to grow musically. You wanted to reach more maturity. Do you think that King Crimson was the best choice, then, that enabled you to grow musically?

BB: Oh yeah.

BM: Really?

BB: Sure. Yeah, I was perfect for King Crimson and very loyal to the band and I’ve always enjoyed being in it although it’s hard work at times.

That's probably 3/4 of my first interview with Mr. B. In Part Two, I asked Bill more specific questions about his work with King Crimson and his working relationship with Robert Fripp. As you might expect, his answers were nothing less than fascinating.


Last edited by LTinAspic on Sat Dec 24, 2005 4:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Riverman on Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:22 pm

Again, this is priceless. Thanks so much for sharing.
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Postby vrooom on Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:42 pm

Absolutely superb.

Thanks, Mr M.

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Postby GrassySound on Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:53 pm

Bill, thank you so very much for yet another fascinating and insightful interview. I greatly appreciate your hard work in making this material available to us.
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Postby Indyrod on Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:10 pm

Thanks again Bill, excellent piece of journalism.
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Postby The Crimson Avenger on Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:56 pm

The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more fucking punishment in store. Stand it like a man. And give some back.
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Postby evktalo on Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:23 pm

Great stuff again, thanks Bill!

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Postby Gilesfan on Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:16 am

Excellent Bill and Bill! :D
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Postby Whiskey Vengeance on Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:42 am

Thanks Bill! Very enlightening...
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