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Minnemann, Jobson, Wetton, & Machacek play KC

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Re: Minnemann, Jobson, Wetton, & Machacek play KC

Postby Krimzep on Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:17 am

You can jam on a violin all you want but it does not have the same feel as a guitar especially when played by the guy who wrote it. You cannot substitute a violin for guitar on this track. Plus the missing Sax! The Sax is one of the main parts that brings you deeper into music and solidifies everything thats going on around it. The sax is your life line, without it the piece would just be a noisy off kilter jam with no purpose.


This is why I couldn't follow YES after Bill left. Alan White, IMHO, is the wrong choice as a replacement for Bill. His playing is too generic to play songs like HOTSR, CTTE, SST, Anything from Fragile you know the songs that groove because of Bills strange timings. To me Alan just doesnt have it. Tales of Topographical Oceans was boring as hell without Bill.

PS. The one and only track I like with Alan is Sound Chaser. Its the only one where he shows some real imagination. The rest of the album is a snooze fest and I tried many times to get into it. I still have the original CD I bought way back in the early eighties.
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Re: Minnemann, Jobson, Wetton, & Machacek play KC

Postby Ironclaw on Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:22 pm

Krimzep makes an excellent point about Bruford's timing. One of the things that fascinates me about the original versionS of Starless (Red's is not definitive for me) is the way BB always played it just behind the beat.

Indyrod's idea of not interpreting songs just playing them the way they were "written" doesn't make sense at all, to me. Bruford, Cross, Fripp and Wetton never played a song the same way twice.

And before there was sax, there was violin. But Cross' playing of the opening melody always stuck me as weak. That part was really much better when played by Fripp on the Red version. But the main solo in the later part of the song was always on violin until Cross started to get drowned out by Wetton and he switched the solo, unhappily, to distorted electric piano. At that time Cross had an awful set up: he had a contact mic literally taped onto his acoustic violin. If he'd had Jobson's instrument back in the day, Cross perhaps never would have been kicked out.

I guess a lot of people think it was good Cross wasn't on Red and Collins and McDonald came in with the sax. But I am biased. Sax is not one of my favorite instruments. The violin is. Violin was the instrument I played as a kid.

I really do like David Cross and Eddie Jobson a lot. They both seem to be among the few that get what the words "electric violin" ought to mean.

And really, this Jobson-Wetton version is the worst? Indyrod, haven't you heard this cringe-worthy effort by Wetton?
Last edited by Ironclaw on Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:25 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Minnemann, Jobson, Wetton, & Machacek play KC

Postby Indyrod on Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:05 pm

Ironclaw wrote:
Indyrod's idea of not interpreting songs just playing them the way they were "written" doesn't make sense at all, to me. Bruford, Cross, Fripp and Wetton never played a song the same way twice.


And really, this Jobson-Wetton version is the worst? Indyrod, haven't you heard this cringe-worthy effort by Wetton?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYJpY_xvLf8



actually, I was referring more to the instruments chosen to do "Starless" ala SAX. I don't care near as much for the RED version (except for the SAX), my favorite is Mainz for KC live. I probably wasn't too clear on that "interpreting" since of course KC rarely plays the same song, the same way twice. so, I guess I was giving a very subjective view, with loads of bias. shame on me. and yes, I've heard the Wetton version, and yep, that's a close second on the worst list. the best cover of "Starless" I've heard is... (again, with John Wetton as guest vocal)



now, THAT's the way you cover "Starless"!!!
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Re: Minnemann, Jobson, Wetton, & Machacek play KC

Postby Krimzep on Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:41 am

I think the album version is awesome, Studio version is Fripp's final vision and makes complete sense to me. I dont know about you guys but the album was the first version I heard. It was quite a few years before I got my first live version.

As an instrument I love the Violin! it is one of my fav instruments too. I just dont think its can replace a guitar for a specific solo and visa versa. I love Cross's sound, Jobson sounds far too electric and with too heavy an effect. To me Cross always had a delicacy to his sound that jobson lacks. Maybe its due to the equipment but I think even if he had better he would still want his violin to sound like one.

I love a band who can change it up without losing the original feel of the piece and though they never played it exactly the same twice, there were themes that were adhered to. Bill never played the fast part slow or slow part fast, he may have used a different allsort from time to time during the slow build up but the main themes are kept. I love the live versions Penn state comes to mind, complex and weird, loud and raw I like it!
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Re: Minnemann, Jobson, Wetton, & Machacek play KC

Postby Ironclaw on Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:10 am

Krimzep:

Yeah, me too. I first heard "Starless" from "Red" on the vinyl I bought from the local record store in the late seventies when Crim had supposedly ceased to exist. I believe it was a "cutout" copy and I got it for one dollar and ninety-nine cents. Almost an insult, really. But these days I usually listen to various live versions. I guess most of do.

It's true that back in the day when Cross played an acoustic with a contact mic he had quite a variety of sounds that ranged from sweet to acid. I was listening to the Zurich LTpt1 yesterday and I especially liked the sweet sounding "cadenza" section in that version. But I got to admit that what I really love about Cross is when he goes the noisy route with plenty of distortion and full-on use of pedal. Depending on the version, the solo in LTpt2 is mind-melting for me. I dislike the way Steven Wilson cut it out of his alternate remix of LTpt2. Anyway, nowadays Cross plays a Zeta electric violin with frets. Seems a sensible thing to do when you play violin in loud electric music on stage. And I love the crazy noisy stuff he does with it in his solo work.

Indyrod:

I guess we've sort of had this conversation before. It is nice to hear a live version with sax, but I prefer the Jobson version. OK, the live version by UK/MM…well, I like it quite a bit. I honestly think it stays closer to the spirit of KC. I bought the CD/DVD off the shelf partly because I could see on the back that they played "Starless". I thought, "Cool. Live 'Starless' with Eddie Jobson! I want to hear that!" I wasn't disappointed at all. The only thing I would really quibble with is the way Wetton played the bass riff at the beginning of the quiet section.

By the way, thank you for changing some of my you-tube links and making them more presentable. I'm a dinosaur on tech stuff.

Everyone:

And just for a lark, Wetton in an amateur sort of "school of rock" version:


Or how about Ian Wallace, anyone?
Last edited by Ironclaw on Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:29 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Minnemann, Jobson, Wetton, & Machacek play KC

Postby jtmack on Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:32 am

Ironclaw wrote:Krimzep:
Or how about Ian Wallace, anyone?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JJ9wKJsfEA

I love the way Wallace and crew interpreted the KC catalog. You would had to see it live in what was one of the best shows I'd ever seen. In a small venue with about fifty people most were in the business and they were very impressed too. That was the first show the next show didn't have the same feel maybe he was all really very sick and didn't know it. Shit you had Earl Palmer, Freddie Gruber, Alan White, Tulls dummer, John Tess and every jazz reviewer in LA there. Freddie Gruber and Margie at the front door with Margie telling Freddy there's no smoking and Freddy blowing smoke at her with her going off on him I almost pissed myself laughing watching those two. Great memories.
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Re: Minnemann, Jobson, Wetton, & Machacek play KC

Postby Krimzep on Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:37 am

Damn! just for a lark!! those guys were great!! they really played it with love and respect and that makes it great! I thought the drummer was gonna kick right through his bass drum at one point. I had to watch the whole thing, even with the couple of small flubs that was way better than the others and definitely a better listen than Mr. Wallace's elevator jazz.
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Re: Minnemann, Jobson, Wetton, & Machacek play KC

Postby Ironclaw on Wed Dec 11, 2013 4:51 am

And finally, sung in Italian, a version with Collins AND Cross TOGETHER:


I was disappointed in this one. Between Cross and A&M's guitarist, they don't give Collins a chance to solo. You can see him trying to get one a couple of times, then he humbly defers. A crime against artistic reconciliation was committed! On the other hand the violin melody sections are anything but weak. Perhaps too strong. And although I like DC, I didn't really get into his soloing here.
Last edited by Ironclaw on Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Minnemann, Jobson, Wetton, & Machacek play KC

Postby Krimzep on Wed Dec 11, 2013 7:32 pm

Ironclaw wrote:And finally, sung in Italian, a version with Collins AND Cross TOGETHER:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXjbcUgj1rU

I was disappointed in this one. Between Cross and A&M's guitarist, they don't give Collins a chance to solo. You can see him trying to get one a couple of times, then he humbly defers. A crime against artistic reconciliation was committed! On the other hand the violin melody sections are anything but weak. Perhaps too strong. And although I like DC, I didn't really get into his soloing here.



:shock: :shock: :shock: :cry: :cry: :cry:

I wonder if the singer knows how stupid he looked with the black light thing he was doing?
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Re: Minnemann, Jobson, Wetton, & Machacek play KC

Postby Ironclaw on Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:10 am

Yeah, Krimzep, your series of smilies captures my reaction as well. For me the intro starts off kind of awesome sounding then it all goes d o w n h i l l.
It also seems like the soundboard to pa mix at that concert was awful. Even when Collins plays, you can't hear him.

And the school of rock one. Actually, I like it. The drummer captures some of that behind the beat stuff and they really get into it. But it seems like Wetton was at first doing it almost for a lark (wanted to use the word…), then you can see him watching and listening and and you can read in his face how he's thinking something like "Woah, not bad, not bad at all!"
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